7-1/4 vs 7-1/2 Gauge - Revision history

Dnevil: /* Harpur Letter */

2021-07-19T02:53:57Z

Harpur Letter

← Older revision		Revision as of 21:53, 18 July 2021
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	Little Engines and other manufacturers have stuck to these gauges as their standard ever since this article was published, because they were established by the [[IBLS\|Brotherhood]].		Little Engines and other manufacturers have stuck to these gauges as their standard ever since this article was published, because they were established by the [[IBLS\|Brotherhood]].

	Maybe it would be a good idea for [[The North American Live Steamer]] to publish these standards from time to time. This would greatly help fellows like Mr. Hays. It seems a shame that after some 25 years of there being a [[IBLS\|Brotherhood]] there could be any doubt, ~~eve~~ in the minds of new-comers, as to what gauge goes to what scale. We do not wish to confuse these people, but to help them. And surely this is a function of the [[IBLS\|Brotherhood]].		Maybe it would be a good idea for [[The North American Live Steamer]] to publish these standards from time to time. This would greatly help fellows like Mr. Hays. It seems a shame that after some 25 years of there being a [[IBLS\|Brotherhood]] there could be any doubt, even in the minds of new-comers, as to what gauge goes to what scale. We do not wish to confuse these people, but to help them. And surely this is a function of the [[IBLS\|Brotherhood]].

	If you, Mr. Hays, would like to be convinced as to 7-1/2 inch track gauge, you are more than welcome to come to [[Seymour F. Johnson]]'s [[Goleta Valley Railroad]] in Santa Barbara, California for the annual Golden Spike Run to be held August 2, 3, and 4, 1957, and see what will be the largest gathering of 1-1/2 inch scale engines this country has ever known. We believe then that you will see for yourself that 7-1/2 inch is the gauge for 1-1/2 inch scale, and that any other is a bastard size.		If you, Mr. Hays, would like to be convinced as to 7-1/2 inch track gauge, you are more than welcome to come to [[Seymour F. Johnson]]'s [[Goleta Valley Railroad]] in Santa Barbara, California for the annual Golden Spike Run to be held August 2, 3, and 4, 1957, and see what will be the largest gathering of 1-1/2 inch scale engines this country has ever known. We believe then that you will see for yourself that 7-1/2 inch is the gauge for 1-1/2 inch scale, and that any other is a bastard size.

Dnevil: /* Harpur Letter */

2021-07-19T02:52:29Z

Harpur Letter

← Older revision		Revision as of 21:52, 18 July 2021
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	The rest of the article discusses track radii---how wide to open track on curves, and gives the minimum radii for all of these different scales.		The rest of the article discusses track radii---how wide to open track on curves, and gives the minimum radii for all of these different scales.

	[[Little Engines]] and other manufacturers have stuck to these gauges as their standard ever since this article was published, because they were established by the [[IBLS\|Brotherhood]].		Little Engines and other manufacturers have stuck to these gauges as their standard ever since this article was published, because they were established by the [[IBLS\|Brotherhood]].

	Maybe it would be a good idea for [[The North American Live Steamer]] to publish these standards from time to time. This would greatly help fellows like Mr. Hays. It seems a shame that after some 25 years of there being a [[IBLS\|Brotherhood]] there could be any doubt, eve in the minds of new-comers, as to what gauge goes to what scale. We do not wish to confuse these people, but to help them. And surely this is a function of the [[IBLS\|Brotherhood]].		Maybe it would be a good idea for [[The North American Live Steamer]] to publish these standards from time to time. This would greatly help fellows like Mr. Hays. It seems a shame that after some 25 years of there being a [[IBLS\|Brotherhood]] there could be any doubt, eve in the minds of new-comers, as to what gauge goes to what scale. We do not wish to confuse these people, but to help them. And surely this is a function of the [[IBLS\|Brotherhood]].

Dnevil: /* Penrose Estate */

2021-07-19T02:51:29Z

Penrose Estate

← Older revision		Revision as of 21:51, 18 July 2021
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	A miniature railroad was built several years prior to 1947 on the estate of Pennsylvania Senator Boise Penrose. Frank H. Moore, Jr mentions the railroad several times in [[Building the Little Railroad]], and each time it is said to have been a 7-1/2 inch gauge railroad. The [[Pennsylvania Live Steamers]] purchased the track for $50 for their 2-1/2, 3-1/2 and 4-3/4 inch multi-scale track. The current PLS track is gauged at 7-1/4 inch.		A miniature railroad was built several years prior to 1947 on the estate of Pennsylvania Senator Boise Penrose. Frank H. Moore, Jr mentions the railroad several times in [[Building the Little Railroad]], and each time it is said to have been a 7-1/2 inch gauge railroad. The [[Pennsylvania Live Steamers]] purchased the track for $50 for their 2-1/2, 3-1/2 and 4-3/4 inch multi-scale track. The current PLS track is gauged at 7-1/4 inch.

			== Stacy Lambeth ==

			An article entitled [[Tom Thumb Railroads]] was published in <i>Railroad Magazine</i>, 1939, stating the M. Stacy Lambeth built a 7-1/2 inch gauge Pacific.

			[[File:StacyLambeth locomotive.png\|thumb\|center\|500px\|M. Stacy Lambeth, age 37 (shown here), is a Southern Railway machinist at Alexandira, Virginia. His hobby is Tom Thumb Railroading. He spent more than 3200 hours building this oil-burner, the Lelia Stacy", an 1100 pound, 7-1/2 inch gauge replica of the Southern's 1387. She operates on 15 to 90 pounds of steam, although her boiler has been tested for 250 pounds pressure. Diameter of driving wheels, 9-5/16 inches.]]

	== Unification ==		== Unification ==

Dnevil: /* Background */

2018-06-26T16:57:24Z

Background

← Older revision		Revision as of 11:57, 26 June 2018
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	The 7 1/4 versus 7 1/2 Debate		The 7 1/4 versus 7 1/2 Debate

	As worldwide communications improved and it became evident that having two standards for 1:8 scale modeling in the U.S. was counterproductive, an attempt was put forth to adopt a true standard for track gauge, wheel profiles and couplers. The organization known as the International Brotherhood of Live Steamers was consulted, with representatives from areas around the world working with riding scale railroads. Via mailings, all known private and club railroads were contacted and asking for input on what the standards should be so a single set could be established. From the replies, it became abundantly apparent there was no easy solution within the U.S. and the I.B.L.S. settled on adopting and recommending standards following those being used in California and sent these out as "proposed standards" to everyone. Since these first included 7-1/2" as the correct gauge for 1:8 scale, they were never officially adopted by everyone and have remained as proposed ever since. However, in the U.S., these proposed standards have been used by most everyone for wheels and couplers and each area has used their local gauge standard. This has allowed for the trains to easily travel to other railroads and interchange equipment fairly easy, except for crossing The 1/4" Demarcation Line in the northeast. Today if you look at most IBLS wheel and coupler charts, you will find gauging standards for both 7-1/4" and 7-1/2" that have become the accepted standards by most. What is really most interesting is the fact that for exact 1/8" scale, the track gauge should be 7 1/16 inches.		As worldwide communications improved and it became evident that having two standards for 1:8 scale modeling in the U.S. was counterproductive, an attempt was put forth to adopt a true standard for track gauge, wheel profiles and couplers. The organization known as the [[IBLS\|International Brotherhood of Live Steamers]] was consulted, with representatives from areas around the world working with riding scale railroads. Via mailings, all known private and club railroads were contacted and asking for input on what the standards should be so a single set could be established. From the replies, it became abundantly apparent there was no easy solution within the U.S. and the I.B.L.S. settled on adopting and recommending standards following those being used in California and sent these out as "proposed standards" to everyone. Since these first included 7-1/2" as the correct gauge for 1:8 scale, they were never officially adopted by everyone and have remained as proposed ever since. However, in the U.S., these proposed standards have been used by most everyone for wheels and couplers and each area has used their local gauge standard. This has allowed for the trains to easily travel to other railroads and interchange equipment fairly easy, except for crossing The 1/4" Demarcation Line in the northeast. Today if you look at most IBLS wheel and coupler charts, you will find gauging standards for both 7-1/4" and 7-1/2" that have become the accepted standards by most. What is really most interesting is the fact that for exact 1/8" scale, the track gauge should be 7 1/16 inches.

	[[File:EugeneSnider 6inch TheMiniatureLocomotive JanFeb1953.png\|thumb\|center\|300px\|An example of the variations that existed in gauge, here is a 6" gauge locomotive. Eugene may have had a difficult time selling it. From "The Miniature Locomotive", Jan-Feb 1953.]]		[[File:EugeneSnider 6inch TheMiniatureLocomotive JanFeb1953.png\|thumb\|center\|300px\|An example of the variations that existed in gauge, here is a 6" gauge locomotive. Eugene may have had a difficult time selling it. From "The Miniature Locomotive", Jan-Feb 1953.]]

Dnevil: /* Arguments for 7-1/16" Gauge */

2017-09-01T14:17:35Z

Arguments for 7-1/16" Gauge

← Older revision		Revision as of 09:17, 1 September 2017
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	Good stability has been obtained in full-size practice on railways as narrow as 2'-0" in gauge. It is freely admitted that speeds are not high as compared with standard gauge lines but rather powerful engines can be produced for this gauge. An American example that many may have observed are the former standard gauge D.&R.G.W. locomotives which have been cut down to operate on the 3'-0" narrow gauge lines and these engines are not particularly subject to derailment. To bring out the proportions clearly I have superimposed an Indian 2'-0" gauge clearance diagram over a New York Central clearance which is of smaller cross-section than most of our roads. The great width of the narrow gauge equipment with respect to track gauge is readily apparent.		Good stability has been obtained in full-size practice on railways as narrow as 2'-0" in gauge. It is freely admitted that speeds are not high as compared with standard gauge lines but rather powerful engines can be produced for this gauge. An American example that many may have observed are the former standard gauge D.&R.G.W. locomotives which have been cut down to operate on the 3'-0" narrow gauge lines and these engines are not particularly subject to derailment. To bring out the proportions clearly I have superimposed an Indian 2'-0" gauge clearance diagram over a New York Central clearance which is of smaller cross-section than most of our roads. The great width of the narrow gauge equipment with respect to track gauge is readily apparent.

	Vernon L Smith		: Vernon L Smith
	: 1928 Randolph Ave		: 1928 Randolph Ave
	: Topeka, Kansas		: Topeka, Kansas

Dnevil: /* Arguments for 7-1/16" Gauge */

2017-09-01T14:17:20Z

Arguments for 7-1/16" Gauge

← Older revision		Revision as of 09:17, 1 September 2017
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	Vernon L Smith		Vernon L Smith
	1928 Randolph Ave		: 1928 Randolph Ave
	Topeka, Kansas		: Topeka, Kansas

	== The Whysall Light Railway Theory ==		== The Whysall Light Railway Theory ==

Dnevil: /* Friend Theory */

2016-11-29T04:05:28Z

Friend Theory

← Older revision		Revision as of 23:05, 28 November 2016
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	:: [[Southern California Live Steamers\|SCLS]] & [[Los Angeles Live Steamers\|LALS]] also [[IBLS\|BHLS]]		:: [[Southern California Live Steamers\|SCLS]] & [[Los Angeles Live Steamers\|LALS]] also [[IBLS\|BHLS]]
	:: Lomita, California		:: Lomita, California

			== Penrose Estate ==

			A miniature railroad was built several years prior to 1947 on the estate of Pennsylvania Senator Boise Penrose. Frank H. Moore, Jr mentions the railroad several times in [[Building the Little Railroad]], and each time it is said to have been a 7-1/2 inch gauge railroad. The [[Pennsylvania Live Steamers]] purchased the track for $50 for their 2-1/2, 3-1/2 and 4-3/4 inch multi-scale track. The current PLS track is gauged at 7-1/4 inch.

	== Unification ==		== Unification ==

Dnevil: /* Friend Theory */

2016-11-28T01:54:00Z

Friend Theory

← Older revision		Revision as of 20:54, 27 November 2016
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	: In my opinion Mr. Friend or the editors of Model Craftsman magazine made a typographical error that now lives in infamy. Why would a man who saw Live Steam in the North East from the beginning and also saw that earliest 1.5 inch scale track gauge was 7-1/4 inch gauge make such a statement? I have was told a long time ago by a member now long gone that an article in some publication before or during WWII there occurred a typo. So now we have the great North American gauge goof up.		: In my opinion Mr. Friend or the editors of Model Craftsman magazine made a typographical error that now lives in infamy. Why would a man who saw Live Steam in the North East from the beginning and also saw that earliest 1.5 inch scale track gauge was 7-1/4 inch gauge make such a statement? I have was told a long time ago by a member now long gone that an article in some publication before or during WWII there occurred a typo. So now we have the great North American gauge goof up.

			=== Harpur Letter ===
			<i>[[The North American Live Steamer]]</i>, Volume 1 Number 11

			In answer to Mr. L.D. Hays' letter as to track gauge for 1-1/2 inch scale I wish to submit the following information.

			The May 1944 issue of [[The Model Craftsman]] magazine contains an article written by [[Lester Friend]], whom we all know and highly respect, entitle "[[Track and Switches for Live Steam\|Track and Switch Layouts for Live Steam]]" (a copy of which I have before me) and I quote from this article:

			: The gauges which are considered standard by the [[IBLS\|Brotherhood of Live Steamers]] and all member clubs are as follows: 1/4 inch scale track gauge 1-1/4 inch; 1/2 inch scale track gauge 2-1/2 inch; 3/4 inch track gauge 3-1/2 inch; 1 inch scale track gauge 4-3/4 inch; 1-1/2 inch scale track gauge 7-1/2 inch ...

			The rest of the article discusses track radii---how wide to open track on curves, and gives the minimum radii for all of these different scales.

			[[Little Engines]] and other manufacturers have stuck to these gauges as their standard ever since this article was published, because they were established by the [[IBLS\|Brotherhood]].

			Maybe it would be a good idea for [[The North American Live Steamer]] to publish these standards from time to time. This would greatly help fellows like Mr. Hays. It seems a shame that after some 25 years of there being a [[IBLS\|Brotherhood]] there could be any doubt, eve in the minds of new-comers, as to what gauge goes to what scale. We do not wish to confuse these people, but to help them. And surely this is a function of the [[IBLS\|Brotherhood]].

			If you, Mr. Hays, would like to be convinced as to 7-1/2 inch track gauge, you are more than welcome to come to [[Seymour F. Johnson]]'s [[Goleta Valley Railroad]] in Santa Barbara, California for the annual Golden Spike Run to be held August 2, 3, and 4, 1957, and see what will be the largest gathering of 1-1/2 inch scale engines this country has ever known. We believe then that you will see for yourself that 7-1/2 inch is the gauge for 1-1/2 inch scale, and that any other is a bastard size.

			It is true that 7-1/2 inch is not true scale, but it was selected and put in writing years ago by the [[IBLS\|Brotherhood]], and as far as I am concerned there is no other track gauge that should be considered for this scale. What is the [[IBLS\|Brotherhood]] for?

			: [[Bob Harpur]]
			:: [[Southern California Live Steamers\|SCLS]] & [[Los Angeles Live Steamers\|LALS]] also [[IBLS\|BHLS]]
			:: Lomita, California

	== Unification ==		== Unification ==

Dnevil: /* Friend Theory */

2016-04-05T18:44:05Z

Friend Theory

← Older revision		Revision as of 13:44, 5 April 2016
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	: No. 11		: No. 11
	: In a response to Mr. Hays' letter came this reply which apparently is from the early part of 1957. I have much edited it as it was just too long to include the text. This letter is from [[Bob Harpur]] of Harpur/Allen Mogul fame. In response he submitted the following information.		: In a response to Mr. Hays' letter came this reply which apparently is from the early part of 1957. I have much edited it as it was just too long to include the text. This letter is from [[Bob Harpur]] of Harpur/Allen Mogul fame. In response he submitted the following information.
	:: In the May 1944 issue of [[The Model Craftsman]] magazine there is an article my [[Lester Friend]]. I think this is the fellow who started [[Yankee Shop]] in MA. The title of the article was "~~TRACK AND SWITCH LAYOUTS FOR LIVE STEAM~~". Mr. Friend states that the gauges which are considered standard by the [[IBLS\|Brotherhood of Live Steamers]] and all member clubs are as follows:		:: In the May 1944 issue of [[The Model Craftsman]] magazine there is an article my [[Lester Friend]]. I think this is the fellow who started [[Yankee Shop]] in MA. The title of the article was "[[Track and Switches for Live Steam]]". Mr. Friend states that the gauges which are considered standard by the [[IBLS\|Brotherhood of Live Steamers]] and all member clubs are as follows:
	:: * 1/4 inch scale track gauge = 1-1/4 inch		:: * 1/4 inch scale track gauge = 1-1/4 inch
	:: * 1/2 inch scale = 2-1/2 inch		:: * 1/2 inch scale = 2-1/2 inch

Dnevil: /* Friend Theory */

2016-04-05T18:43:10Z

Friend Theory

← Older revision		Revision as of 13:43, 5 April 2016
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	Ken Shattock wrote on 19 April 2014:		Ken Shattock wrote on 19 April 2014:

	: [[Martin Lewis]] of [[Little Engines]] called [[Lester Friend]] in Danvers, MA and asked him what the gauge was for 1 1/2-inch scale. Lester was taken by surprise and stated 7-1/2 inch!! This info came from former LALS President [[Gordon Sherwood]] who states further on that he (Gordon) would stand by "Seymour" ([[Seymour F. Johnson\|Seymour Johnson]]) as [[Charles S. Purinton\|Carl]] did...		: [[Martin Lewis]] of [[Little Engines]] called [[Lester Friend]] in Danvers, MA and asked him what the gauge was for 1 1/2-inch scale. Lester was taken by surprise and stated 7-1/2 inch!! This info came from former [[Los Angelese Live Steamers\|LALS]] President [[Gordon Sherwood]] who states further on that he (Gordon) would stand by "Seymour" ([[Seymour F. Johnson\|Seymour Johnson]]) as [[Charles S. Purinton\|Carl]] did...

	[http://www.chaski.org/homemachinist/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=103231&sid=063da21e3307935e238a862e3e5efcc7&start=48 Cary Stewart posted on Chaski.org</i>]:		[http://www.chaski.org/homemachinist/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=103231&sid=063da21e3307935e238a862e3e5efcc7&start=48 Cary Stewart posted on Chaski.org</i>]: